Being a member of several e-mail lists, all having to do in some way with llamas, I've met and admired many people for their passion, even though there are some I don't agree with. I respect them for who they are.

Gary Kaufman is passionate about llama rescue. I have learned many things from reading Gary's posts. Being fairly new to llama ownership, compared to some, his wisdom reaches far beyond that of many of us who have had llamas as a part of our lives for many years.

Gary, his wife Chloe, and their daughter live near Olympia, WA, at Road's End Llamas .

I asked Gary if he would be willing to share some insight on llama rescue and his life with llamas, and he said 'yes'.

I consider it a privilege to share this 'interview' with you.
-Jill

Jill - How long ago did you start participating in llama rescues?

First I want to thank you for inviting me to answer a few questions about my life with llamas, and to thank you for your tireless effort to become one of THE premier websites linking owners or potential owners to resources.

It is important to note right up front, that I am very, very new to the wonderful world of llamas compared to many others who have had the honor to contribute to llama crossing, and that my experiences to date don't even begin to compare to what others involved with llamas much longer than I have had to face, particularly when it comes to the ugly face of rescue. I had to pull the information from my database and was frankly shocked at the answer. The first 'rescue' my family took on was only back in February 2002. By far that makes me the absolute rookie on the block. Given all that has happened since then, no wonder it has seemed like a major whirlwind. I wish I could say that my introduction into llama rescue situations was a deliberate choice, it really wasn't. It just sort of happened and once the gate was opened, it just hasn't seemed to stop.

Jill - What was the first situation you assisted with? What was the outcome?

It was a simple ad in the paper that read 'llamas for sale pair $200'. I didn't think much of it and went out there to just 'check on the situation', only because I had heard about the cheap dumping and wanted to see if this wasn't a 'bad thing happening'. What we found was horrific living conditions and two animals with toes so long they flopped, living in containment areas less than 200 square feet each, the male living up to his knees in mud and manure. The man was quite elderly, with a 'mini-farm'. He wanted to get rid of the llamas because they weren't keeping the coyotes from killing his chickens. Of course the chickens had free run of his property and the llamas were the ones cooped up. After some haggling over the price, we ran home, got the trailer and hauled the two off home. We almost lost the female due to massive parasite loads that were visible in her poop piles with the naked eye. Their names are now Oreo and Buttons and they live with us. Buttons is a wonderful uncle and grand foster dad for other less secure llamas and runs the male herd.

From there it was Dhali who lived in a pheasant run, then one here and there, a farmer who just needed help relocating a couple he was 'done' with.

Then came Salt, with some VERY huge issues about people. He was given to a family along with a pregnant female as 4H hopefuls. The first thing Salt did was attack, knock down and chase the 450 lb father out of the field. Salt was the only intact male in a herd with females. The owner's children and the neighborhood kids would play lets see who can ride him the longest before he throws us off, and apparently used lassos to catch him. With the coaching and guidance from Llama RescueNet I took on the challenge of dealing with what the trade likes to call a 'berserker'. There are a couple of very interesting photos of him in a stall. The wild look in his eyes is not the camera, its him! It's been a full year now, and he still winces at the slightest fast hand motion raised above waist level, but allows people to touch him, and we have been able to shear him and trim his front toes without calamity.

Then it hit the fan with bigger and bigger situations like the Sumner, WA, slaughterhouse herd of 13, and the Chehalis WA herd of 18. But in the meantime there were lots of truly educational assistance events, helping people who had llamas learn more about how to care for them. Helping people who truly want to learn more about their llamas is by far the best and most rewarding part of what some don't think 'rescue' is about.

My relationship with Llama RescueNet as one of their volunteer coordinators has been an invaluable tool. The folks involved in LRN, several other llama rescue organizations, and sanctuary operations have provided lots of coaching and guidance and direct physical and financial support for the biggest and most time consuming rescue I found myself participating in- the Chehalis WA herd. LRN has consistently been the initial contact point by many llama owners and concerned non-llamas owners for the interactions I have had. I have also had the privilege of working with other hooved animal rescue groups locally as a resource for them.

The hardest issue I have had to deal with is convincing legal authorities that there is power in the laws concerning animal abuse and neglect, and in some cases just what exactly the law entitles them to do and not do. This state empowers the county sheriff office to be the enforcement arm of animal abuse and neglect violations either directly or through Human Societies or other animal rescue groups. It's not always just a matter of not caring. It boils down to finances in many cases and how priorities need to be set. So sometimes it takes a little tantrum throwing to convince them it's in their best interests and the best interests of the community as a whole to take action. Plus add to the fact that you can look across a pasture at a horse and tell its starving to death compared to a llama that requires more often than not up close and personal examination and you have opened a can of worms surrounding search warrants, and probable cause, and the list goes on. And then believe it or not, many deputies are just plain AFRAID of llamas!! Somewhere along the line the issue of spitting gets into their mind and is associated with violent aggressive behavior. But these same deputies have no fear about walking up to a 1500 pound horse wandering a country road and looping a rope around its neck! Makes me smile sometimes.

One of the best models of cooperative relationships with law enforcement I have seen is an organization called Hooved Animal Rescue of Thurston County. They have arranged with the local sheriff office to provide educational classes to the investigating officers not only on the laws, but have taught them handling techniques of various animals, as well as methods of identifying potentially compromised animals. They have made certain that every patrol car has at least one horse halter and lead rope in each trunk, and are committed to being available whenever the authorities have an issue or question about what ought to be done. This is a wonderful cooperative relationship that is the envy of many. I think it would be a great starting point for llama owners, or people interested in mentoring and assisting local animal services and sheriff's departments, to start off by introducing themselves and offering assistance where they can if issues regarding llamas come to their attention. Sooner or later they will have a need and remember that you have made the offer to assist, especially if you start with the local humane society or animal shelters. They already have some form of working relationship, good or bad with local sheriff departments, and any resource available to them is appreciated.

Jill - How long have you had llamas? How did you get started?

I had to check again and it's been just under 4 years since we got our first two llamas. Again that makes our family the new guys on the block, but they say time flies when you are having fun. We got started almost 8 years ago when we bought our mini- ranch: A little over 5 acres, with the intent of raising sheep. My wife and daughter are avid spinners, weavers, knitters, quilters, and we wanted to raise our own fiber animals. We had done quite a bit of research about fiber sheep, goats, llamas and alpacas while we spent most of 3 years clearing out the first pasture and putting up the used 6 foot chain link fencing with posts that was left on the property as part of the purchase deal. The final factor actually came as a result of the care comparison and 'human interactive qualities' that make llamas unique creatures.

Jill - Who most influenced you when you first became a llama owner?

Our first contact with llama owners was with Allison Oatman, Noble View Farm Olympia, WA, who was the first person we "bought" llamas from after visiting her herd several times. Three of our base herd of 6 have come from her. We were looking for fiber quality animals with a minor thought on breeding once, maybe twice. Her detailed caring, awareness not only of the lineage of her animals, but of their personalities, her record keeping, and her willingness to share whatever she knew with us openly and honestly made us feel quite comfortable. She provided us with details on the prior care of the animals we bought, and all sorts of materials on care recommended by the local vets familiar with the needs of camelids specific to our area. We still keep in close touch with her on a regular basis.

Jill - Anyone you truly respect and admire now?

The list of people is longer than you probably have room to print, but without any doubt at the absolute top of the list is Kathy Sprout, Sprout's Family Llamas and Cathy Spalding, Gentle Spirit Llamas. Our family is truly blessed in that we live within a 25 miles radius of at least 20 different very well recognized llama farms, all of whom will jump in at a minutes notice to help out when there's a problem or crisis. It sounds a little hokey, but this is a true community that transcends just the common interest in llamas. Kathy Sprout has provided our family with emotional and spiritual support through all the trials and tribulations we have faced with our llamas, and has shared in all the joys. Cathy Spalding has been a constant and consistent source of support as well. And there have been other owners in this community and across the nation that have joined together to share in the fun we all have with our llamas, or guided us through our in the hardships.

Jill - What do you most enjoy about your llamas now?

Watching their unwavering and absolutely unequivocal loyalty to each other. Oh sure, they spit at each other and sometimes fiercely defend their ranking in the herd, but remove the newest or lowest in ranking llama out of the group, and the entire herd, male and females alike will pace the fence lines, start humming and generally stayed attuned to the fact that one of their own is missing. Everyone who owns llamas has heard the story, but its well worth telling again. Humans have a lot to learn about how to treat their fellow man from this. We had bred one of our girls in an outside breeding, and she delivered 8 weeks early while we were away at work. The cria was dead when we got home. The mother spent the next 3 days literally laying along side the dead cria, not allowing even me to try and remove it. Each of the other females took turns standing watch over the mother and dead cria the entire time. So I guess it really is the intensity of their commitment to each other and their willingness to include us in that circle that I enjoy the most.

Jill - What is the most important message that llama owners need to hear?

LLAMAS ARE NOT EASIER KEEPERS!!! Please stop telling prospective buyers that they are. Someone, somewhere came up with that as a way of convincing people that owning a llama was just like owning a great big huge poodle. Sure, you can put 4 or more llamas on the same amount of land as one horse, but that just means that you have 4 times as much care.

Jill - What else do llama owners need to be aware of?

Don't plan on getting llamas to get rich off them. If you aren't a part of the 'game' now, the odds of succeeding run between slim and none. There are still lots of big breeders and owners out there that have very successful breeding programs. Many of them have base herds and 'styles' or 'types' or 'breeds' of llamas [call it what you will] that they have been able to successfully find a niche for. They have diligently worked to earn respect in their respective communities, and have spent years cultivating their market, ethically and respectfully. Then there are also pump and dumps; folks who can crank out the llamas and dump them in the local community to unsuspecting new, uneducated people, who believe that owning a llama or two would be fun, only to discover later that they are on their own when it comes to learning what to do next. So, I guess the best advice is 'research, research, research'; not just about llamas, but also about the people you are thinking of buying a llama from. Ask for a referral list. Go visit the people the llamas were sold to. 'Caveat emptor' is a phrase that rings true for everything and anything you may be thinking about buying. When thinking about buying llamas, the consequence of being ill-prepared is that it impacts living breathing creatures that deserve more than to be just dumped in a field and ignored their entire lives.

For those selling llamas either as a business or because their lives have changed and they can't have llamas any more for whatever reason, check out the people wanting to buy or adopt your llamas. The most recent criminal process here locally involves more than 30 animals total, including 7 llamas. Plus there were dogs, cats, and exotic birds. The woman who owned [they have since been removed by legal process] them essentially just answered ads in the paper from folks looking to unload their animals because of family illness, divorce, death, boredom, whatever. Nothing evil or malicious about what she was doing, she truly believed she was saving these animals from a horrible situation. When it was finally brought to the attention of the authorities, they found a horse living in a horse trailer, 2 llamas and 3 sheep living in two side by side 6'x12' dog kennels, llamas goats and sheep with mangled, infected or crippled legs where HER dogs had taken to chewing on them, and animals so dehydrated that they were literally drinking water out of the running hose while it was filling the empty water buckets in their containments. Virtually all of these animals were 'given' to her because she was willing to take them on, and not a single owner ever bothered to check her out or where the animals would live, and not a single owner ever did any sort of follow-up. The remainder of the animals she bought at public auctions, to save them from the butcher. There was even one dog rescue operation that had used her as a foster home for a Basset Hound that never knew what the situation was like, until the authorities were able to track them down and return the animal to them! So, guess I would ask people selling llamas to respect the dignity of your animals by checking out the situations and occasionally following up. In the long run, it's good business, and here's why: I bought my wife a Bosworth spinning wheel a couple of years ago, brand new. The dealers are required to spend at least 2 hours with the buyer showing them how it works, explaining its intricacies and going in depth into the care and maintenance of it. Bear with me here.

Shortly after buying it, my wife had some problems getting it to work properly, so she sent an email to Mr. Bosworth. The next day he CALLED ON THE PHONE to walk her through the difficulties she was having. A year later, she noticed a flaw developing in the gate portion of the wheel, a groove was forming in the wood and causing difficulties in the ability to spin effectively. She contacted Bosworth again, and they simply said 'ship it to us and we'll send you a new gate', no questions, no arguments, no excuses. Twice a year we get an email from them, just to remind us that they are still and always will be there to stand behind their product. So what's this got to do with selling llamas? Well I just told you the story didn't I? And it raised your respect level for Bosworth. It's that value added reputation that llama seller's can add to their business.

There are folks who regularly sell llamas as a source of income that may balk at this thought; I guess I just have a different philosophy on the obligation humans have to the animals they choose to raise, for whatever reason. I'm not naïve to the point of being a 'bleeding heart' animal lover. We have meat industries, and egg industries, and dairy industries that run mass production operation just to meet the demands in this country. But there does still need to be at least a modicum of respect for the animals that are literally 'run' through those mills. There isn't in many [read most cases] but that's a whole different issue. With llamas and the current state of the 'industry', llamas are produced either to be companion animals, fiber animals, packing animals, or a combination of the three, and adding the added value of being a permanent resource to your buyer goes a long way in the long run.

Jill - Where do you see the 'llama industry' in 5 years?

As new as I am to llama ownership, and as far away from the active 'world of llamas' with its regional and national show events, pack trials, 4H events and giant auctions, I'm not sure I'm the best or even remotely qualified to answer that. On the other hand, looking in from my perspective, I have some personal thoughts, which I hope will continue to fuel the controversy.

The first stud book listing of the American Kennel Club was first published in 1878 and was accepted by 12 men in a small little room back in 1884 and listed 14 breeds. There had been dog breeder associations in parts of Europe long before that. I see the 'llama industry' in flux now, 5 years from now and probably still 20 years from now. The dog breeding industry, the horse breeding industry, the cattle industry all have centuries of basis for the structure of how they operate, how they define the various breeds, and have a process for defining and recognizing new breeds as they 'evolve' [read created]. The llama industry is in it's infancy by comparison, when it comes to establishing any of the criteria, and processes and procedures that other animal industries have established. The llama industry has not yet established any kind of criteria for definition of 'breeds' [which is different from types] of llamas. It took years for this to come about in other animal industries, and to expect instant changes in an 'industry' that is in its infancy is inappropriate. There are people who have been involved with llamas since 'the beginning' who recognize the need to move more towards establishing standards, procedures and protocols, and they have started the process, which is a good thing. I'm not enough of an expert about llamas to know if it is even possible to establish breeds of llamas, but if a horse can be called an appaloosa because of specific marking criteria as part of the breed, or an Irish Setter can be defined specifically, I would imagine llamas 'could' have specific breeds that are defined by size, color, height, length, etc. Another can of worms.

If you are asking do I think that 5 years from now there will no longer be a need for 'llama rescue', the answer is an unequivocal NO!

Nothing any of the other animal industries has done has been able to stem the tide of unwanted animals, animal breeding mills or hoarding, and to expect that to happen is just plain naïve. Do I think that the exotic meat industry will find more and more llamas as a part of their repertoire? Sadly, yes. It is talked about in small corners and dark shadows. Most everyone who has a vested interest of some kind knows it's happening, and the opinions about the topic are as wide and diverse as there are people who own llamas. The horse breeding industry has not been able to stop it. Llama meat is certainly never going to replace chicken or pork or beef or lamb or goat, but eventually I'm afraid it will hit the market with a huge BANG, but for a short time, and there are indeed people who believe it would be the best thing for the 'industry' if llamas were eaten. After all THEIR thinking goes, what better way to get rid of unwanted animals than to eat them? That sort of thinking is myopic in my mind, and is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you'll indulge the mixed metaphors. The argument goes on to point to South America where they are an integral part of the regional cultures. They are bred for their fiber, or used for packing, and when or if they are not capable of adding value or function to the lives of the people, they are indeed eaten. That's the nature of that society and it has worked as an integral part of their daily lives for hundreds of years. Not wrong, not right, just the reality of that world; it makes a llama in South American culture no different than a cow, or a chicken or a pig in this country.

The irony is that they were introduced into this country differently and promoted differently and that is perhaps the wonder and the pitfall today. "Fun and wonderful and huggable and loveable with fiber and packing abilities these animals will bring joy, wonder AND MONEY into your lives". So the tone was set at the very beginning, as I understand the history.

But, there seems to have emerged a second or third tier of llama owners. Those are the folks that own their llamas because of the hidden value these animals have and bring into their lives. They can make wonderful, some say spiritual companions, and can be just plain fun. Their versatility and adaptability is uncanny. The animal bred for it's fiber is just as capable of being trained to entertain seniors in a nursing home, or if sheared and trained, carry a light pack for a trip into the woods, or just go for a walk down the street. They will greet the visitors to our place almost like a dog might, with obvious curiosity. As a broad paintbrush and without trying to imbue them with too many human characteristics they just seem to 'like' being alive!

Llamas, bottom line are living creatures, and in this country the way people treat living creatures runs the entire gamut from downright evil and cruel, to near worship. It's unfortunate, but a fact of life, and it extends well beyond just the way in which people treat animals. The breath of crimes against humans runs the exact same gamut, and to expect a society to be able to enforce codes of ethics regarding treatment of animals when the same society can't protect human victims is way too Quixotic a goal. [Sorry about the preaching!]

So much for someone not qualified to answer the question providing an answer.

Jill - How do you feel about trends in the llama industry, from paints, to woolies, to suris, etc. ?

If the impact on shear volume of unwanted llamas because of attempting to be 'trendy' wasn't so huge, I think it might be funny, hearing about folks try to figure out ways to make llamas 'more valuable' and guessing what the next 'gimmick might be'. We own woolies, because we use their fiber. But we also have medium and light wooled llamas whose fiber we also use. We have a couple of true 'old style classics' that will walk the legs off you in the woods, and we have a couple of compact mixes that are all muscle and will do the same thing. To steal a phrase, 'criating' a look in a llama so it can be the first one on the block and open a 'fad' market is not what an industry should be doing. There are quarter horse folks who swear that there are two kinds of horses, those that are quarter horses, and the rest. The same holds true of Arabian breeders, Tennessee walker owners, and on and on. Dog owners feel the same way about Basset's, Beagles, Irish Setters, etc. The impact of the trends unfortunately in many cases is that the 'old fads' wind up discarded or dumped. Llama RescueNet was contacted and I got involved with a herd of 13 llamas that were pulled out of a custom slaughterhouse by a concerned citizen. All of the animals had obviously had prior handling in various degrees, but all were 'out of the loop of fad styles'. The sad fact is inherent in the question when you ask the word 'trend'. It's not the formation of an established breed that is the driving factor, it's the drive by some, NOT ALL, to breed to be trendy. That guarantees chaos. I think the business end of llamas, which is a long way from what my family does, needs to stop trying to be 'trendy'. When llamas first came into this country the fact that they were here WAS the 'fad'. Along with ostriches, emus and pot bellied pigs. They were the fad for different reasons, but the end result was the same. The bubble burst. There are folks involved much more intimately with the core of the industry that know it, and are working to stabilize the process despite some of the efforts to be 'the first with the newest and the most of them'.

Jill - What is your choice for an 'ideal' llama?

My ideal llama is our own Cayan. She will never win a ribbon in a show because we don't know how to show her, and she is just a run of the mill llama by conformation, but she has wonderful fiber that our family uses regularly.

What makes her ideal is that on a clear, starry summer night, I can walk out into the pasture where all the girls are kushed, enjoying the cool evening air, call her by name, walk up next to where she is kushed, and stretch out along side her and enjoy the evening stars with her still laying along side me. She adds to our life with her fiber, and her temperament. The pack animals add to the lives of their owners in the same fashion. They have purpose, they fill a niche, and if I were to be so bold, the best of the best add to their owners' lives a sense of peace and tranquility, if they allow it to happen. This 'love' of llamas is uniquely North American, and I for one am thankful that they have come into our lives and allow me to share in their world.

It is important, I guess, to wind this up by recognizing the hundreds of people who have been active in the issues of llama overpopulation, and of llama rescue, longer and with significantly more intensity than I have been. There is nothing unique about the events I have found myself caught up in, nor anything unique about the fact that I have assisted where I can. Daily there are people who do lots of things that benefit the llama community as a whole, and llama owners one on one, all in effort to minimize the need for dealing with abused or neglected llama. Daily there are hundreds of people who get calls from llama owners asking for guidance and help, and they run out selflessly to do what they can. There are people who have been doing this for YEARS day in and day out, without thanks, and with little if any financial support, but they do it, nonetheless, because it is the right thing to do. The act of mentoring and helping and assisting llama owners is without a doubt the best way to prevent the 'headline rescues' in the long run. That's not exactly a secret. Every person that gets a little help with shearing, toe trimming, inoculations, or training makes it that much less likely that those animals will be in need of saving. And that is what its all about, and that thankfully goes on very single day throughout the entire llama community.

There's nothing new about what you asked me share, nothing earth shattering and nothing that will stem the tide, but I am thankful for the opportunity to say it again. Each time people have the opportunity hear, or read about the issues an inevitable controversy ensues, and controversy is a powerful tool that. I want to thank Llama Crossing again for offering me the opportunity to share some thoughts.